Alert Fatigue With Boaz Barzel

Transcript

Mandi Walls (00:09): Welcome to Page It to the Limit, a podcast where we explore what it takes to run software in production successfully. We cover leading practices used in the software industry to improve the system reliability and the lives of the people supporting those systems. I’m your host, Mandi Walls. Find me at LNXCHK on Twitter. Alright, welcome back everybody. Today I am joined by Boaz Barzel. He’s the field CTO of OX Security. We’re going to be talking about alert fatigue. I’m really excited about this. Boaz, welcome to the show. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do.

Boaz Barzel (00:45): Thank you very much, Mandi. It’s pleasure to be here. It’s also a fantastic discussion and a little bit about myself. I like to say that I’m making tech make sense in the way that having the ability to simplify complex technological innovation and then trying to explain it to people that are not necessarily tech savvy, but mostly really bringing the business and product areas together. Creating that feedback loop between the market and what we’re developing and trying to understand where OX will provide value to its customers.

Mandi Walls (01:26): Awesome. So our topic today is alert fatigue. So we talk about alert fatigue off and on in the context of just general incidents and incident response and managing all of that kind of stuff. You come from a security industry background, which has specific impacts of course for alert fatigue as well. So just to level set with folks, what is alert fatigue? What kind of things, how does it manifest for folks who might be feeling the impacts but don’t have a word for it?

Boaz Barzel (01:57): That’s a very good question. I think that alert fatigue is really something happens that you are flooded with alerts and you feel like in some way if people are swimming, but when you swim, you dive under water, you swim, you swim, you swim, you go up and take air and you feel like your lungs are kind of getting burst. It’s a similar situation, but it’s on the mind. It’s not really on the body even though it has some body repercussions. But what’s happening is that we are encountering a state where there’s a flood of alerts coming from different places. Most of them are insignificant, and the problem is that we’re getting a cognitive overload and really imagining that you’re sitting in front of the screen for eight, nine hours a day and 95% of what you’re seeing is not helpful. You don’t care about it and it’s basically looking at a static noise kind of screen like we had in the nineties when the TVs goes dark and it like this.

Boaz Barzel (03:09): So from that perspective, what it does, it really creates a state of constant, I would say hyper hypervigilance where our attention is constantly split between multiple types of alerts, multiple types of screens, multiple types of areas, and eventually the brain does what natural thing to the brain. It starts tuning everything out. So one thing that you’ll feel is that you’re starting to get used to the situation when you hear phrases. That’s how it’s like here, this is how it is. You see people noding their heads and doing with their hands kind of reaction in that sense. And it’s really not resilience. They’re not really strong and powerful and resilient. It’s more like they’re resigning themselves out of the situation.

Boaz Barzel (04:02): And it’s really deadly in a security environment where it’s enough that you’re looking at a security alert and saying, oh, I’ve seen that’s probably a false positive. You’re dismissing that. You’re dismissing something else. And then the next thing is you have a breach because something was dismissed. And eventually this is how we’re seeing a lot of the teams, especially in SOC analysts or people that handling alerts all the time. Also in AppSec, we’re seeing that kind of pressure that if they’re saying that it’s true, it’s true. If not, then nobody’s going to look at it again. So there’s a lot of pressure on these teams, so they’re going to feel that pressure, they’re going to feel tired, hungry, wanting to take breaks more often and a lot of behavioral changes that we’ll also talk later on because this is something that really makes it a big problem for companies and managers especially.

Mandi Walls (05:01): For sure. And I feel like we all have, I won’t say the opportunity, but it exists that the conditions exist that many of us may feel like we’re suffering from some kind of alert fatigue just from our daily lives. Your phone’s going off, there’s email coming in, there’s the chat in however many channels and there’s all these other things going on. And then on top of that, you’re expected to do a job that requires you to respond to emerging issues and incoming problems on a regular basis on a sort of constant stream of data that’s coming in. And I feel like I watched a webinar that you have, and we’ll put it in the show notes, a lot of really good information in there. I feel like as part of the industry, the security teams maybe are getting more of this than others. It feels like. Like you said, the tools are always at a state of emergency. There’s a potential for disaster waiting around every single corner, even though so many things are false positives and that just feels like it would be so much more frustrating than even the average DevOps or ops operational or cloud infrastructure job where there’s things going on, but maybe not quite as insane.

Boaz Barzel (06:14): Yeah, it’s exactly that. And the insanity part is really something that I would say managers should be really, really focused. I’ve read a few studies. One of them is talking about the fact that about 84% of security professional report burned out from alert overload and one of three of them is actually looking to leave their job due to that alert fatigue in the alert volume. And this is something that even if you’re taking zoom for example, there is a new term apparently as part of my reading that’s called zoom fatigue,

Boaz Barzel (06:57): And it’s actually happening because you are seeing less of the body and we’re human beings, we rely a lot of our visual interpretation of the body language and how we’re seeing that person and talking. And if that person is standing in front of us with their legs pointing at us or not, it’s actually in the National Geographic, there is a research around it and it’s those signs that we don’t see. We only see shoulders and up. We mostly rely on our hearing and the words that we’re saying, sometimes we don’t even see the person because the camera is off. So you have no visual interpretation and those signs are actually creating a burden because also you move between one zoom and another. There is no inhaling exhaling or the time you are walking between meetings. And it’s actually a nice research that I do suggest people to look at because I’m experiencing the same thing.

Boaz Barzel (07:58): I have to say constantly on zooms, sometimes 10, 12 hours a day, one of the other, it’s demoralizing. In some cases you are ending up at the end of the day, you can’t think of everything. You can’t do anything. The same thing with alert fatigue. You find out in the morning you want to eat healthy food and you are preparing something that’s healthy and you are going through that and you’re saying, today I’m going to eat healthy. And in lunchtime you pick a salad or a chicken breast or you are really proud of yourself, and as the time goes by, you’re avoiding this snack and that snack by the time you got home with all the work and the alert fatigue and the choices that you had to not automatically do manually, do I just take off a big burger with fries? Or you just order a pizza tray and you kind of go through the entire thing because you are done making hard decision.

Boaz Barzel (09:00): You don’t have the mental capacity and mental power to do it. What’s happening is that if this goes on, then you are exhibiting signs off that alert fatigue. You are making bad decisions, not because you want to make bad decisions. It’s because you’re tuning out a lot of the alerts. You’re tired of getting that same time. It’s like I’m getting the same type of alert over and over and over and over and over. And again, I become somewhat of a risk adverse or risk averse in that sense. And I’m not taking any initiatives. I’m cognitively depleted. I don’t have the mental capacity or mental power to make that healthy decision. So I’m defaulting into something that I like to say. People are like water, I’m not going to go upstream. If I can go downstream, I’ll go downstream. You can call it laziness. You can call it being mindfully lazy.

Boaz Barzel (10:02): It doesn’t matter. I’m going to choose the easiest or the most convenient option for me. And this is happening a lot. And if you’re sitting here and listening to us and you’re feeling like, okay, reminds me of sometime what I’m going through or the decisions that I’m making, then it’s due to some sort of alert fatigue. It doesn’t have to be in security, it can be in anything. And there’s actually another nice research more onto the unplanned job is when we’re seeing unplanned alerts or we’re kind of focused on doing our own tasks, but then we’re going to get notifications and other alerts, which we are unplanned. It takes us on average 23 minutes to get back to working on that task, the same task. And it’s the moving between those tasks also tires you because you have to start working again on what you’re working and especially with managers. Managers must pay attention to people who are starting to exhibit those kinds of behaviors.

Mandi Walls (11:16): What kinds of things do you see? You don’t want to diagnose someone with something that sounds like a disease, but for managers, for folks who are, and we see this in our research as well, overall job satisfaction goes down. The number of alerts a team sees and increases even more for the number of out of hours alerts because like you said, context switching between your, when you’re inflow and you’re doing a regular job and then an alert comes in during the work hours, that’s one thing, but then the stress and the annoyance of it in after hours contributes even more. So we have definitely seen that in our research as well. But what other things do you see as how does it manifest and what should managers and folks be looking out for amongst the folks on their team?

Boaz Barzel (12:06): That’s actually a very good observation that you made also on the after hours. I want to touch that a little bit.

Mandi Walls (12:12): Sure.

Boaz Barzel (12:12): This is something that we’re kind of thinking about eight hours, nine hours of work. We’re going to the office, drinking some coffee, going to the screen, doing whatever we do, go to lunch, so on and so forth. We finished the day and then we are going to go home and everything’s going to be fine. The word doesn’t Moving that I would say pace anymore. There’s a lot of after hours we’re leaving with our phones and slack messages and notifications and emails, and we’re constantly connected. And we’re also afraid of not being connected

Boaz Barzel (12:47): So that after hours alerts, so we’re saying, okay, I’m going to sit at my computer a little bit more. I’m going to handle this one, I’m going to handle that one. You’re looking at your clock, it’s already 9:00 PM You’re saying just, oh, damnit, I have to go. You are literally feeling the fact that you’re not effective anymore, but you’re doing it anyway. And this is something that, for example, managers can look at different types of, I would say symptoms of people that are experiencing leg fatigue. First of all, they can measure triage times. You are hiring someone and they’re starting to work and they’re the perfect person. They have experience. They’re doing triage very, very, very fast. They can take let’s say between I would say 15 minutes to two hours, let’s say. And now you are starting to see that their average is five hours, six hours, not that bad, but something happens.

Boaz Barzel (13:50): Now, usually if they’re doing the same thing over and over again, then it shouldn’t take more time because they already know the people, they know the environment, they understand the tooling, so it actually needs to be faster and not slower. And then when you’re looking at or you are watching them that they’re mentally checking out. So in the beginning, they were contributing, they were part of different initiatives or taking initiatives, but now they seem like they’re unmotivated, like they’re cognitively depleted, as we said. And it’s not their problem in a lot of cases, it’s because of the alert fatigue. And when this has become the norm and you lose that kind of ownership and innovation from the outside, and even for managers or people that are top level managers, it appears to be a performance or an attitude problem. And that’s not the case. You are actually seeing a person in the result of, I would say a poor process or a poor system design

Boaz Barzel (14:56): Because the leadership or the managers are responsible of the entire environment where their people live. And if they’re not going to fix it, they’re also responsible for the burning out of the people. And those people are going to leave, especially if you have very good people. If you don’t tell them. And I told my employees a lot of times, clock out, that’s an order. We say it in the army, but I tell them exactly, okay, take a day off. You’ve gone through a very tough week. We’ve gone through a very tough couple of weeks, but I told my employee today, you’ve gone through a couple of weeks, finish these specific tasks that are critical for now. Take the entire weekend until midday Sunday. So midday to day until midday Sunday because we work Sunday to Thursday, but Sunday clock out, you’re off, you’re not doing anything, you’re resting, you’re taking the time and ensuring that they have that time to for leadership is really important because if I don’t tell them that, then they might do it. They might not. But if I tell them that they have to rest, and if anyone else says to them, do something else, tell them that I told them and I’ll tell them, no, I really do. I’ll tell them they’re not working now. I don’t care unless your house is on fire at the moment and you need a fire, a fighter, and that person might be a firefighter, then he’s resting.

Mandi Walls (16:32): That’s awesome. Yeah, I mean you have to give folks some out, right? Like you said, there has to be some release valve for some of this stuff. And one of the things that you covered in the webinar, one of the guests was a neuroscientist. So that part’s super interesting, all the kind of stuff that goes on in the brain when you’re in this kind of alert, fatigue environment and all the other stuff that’s going on. And then he also got into how important sleep was, which was really fascinating. I hope folks have time to watch this webinar. It was really, really good. But let’s just get into that a little bit. What happens in the brain when someone is dealing with alert fatigue? There’s all kinds of chemicals in the brain and there’s stuff that goes on and there’s other things that have to be flushed out and super interesting.

Boaz Barzel (17:30): This is actually a super interesting part, and it’s also scientifically proven. It’s not like or say, oh, you’re alert fatigue, you’re a weak person. Get over it. It’s not that it’s actually in neuroscience, what it tells us, it tells us that the brain has a limited capacity for decision making and attention for every person. Now, sometimes people have more or less, but it’s really the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that is responsible for reasoning, executive function, decision-making, high level reasoning, and everything around that, that part starts to shut down under constant stress, literally shut down. It’s like you’re turning off something in your brain. Now the way it comes, and I did some research around it and looked at the process, and the process is really starting when there is a stress detection, either a psychological or a physical stress detection, and then in the hypothalamus in the brain, it starts to activate and releases something that’s called corticotropin is a hormone that’s being released. And then it stimulates the pituitary gland, and then from that perspective, it releases cortisol, and then cortisol starts affecting your body. Yeah,

Mandi Walls (18:58): That’s the stress hormone, right?

Boaz Barzel (18:59): Yeah. And because of that, it’s not just stress, it makes your body, it has a similar effect to adrenaline in that sense. But in this case, the emotional regulation goes out of the window, memory starts to flatter in that sense, starts to fade a little bit, and then you get to some sort of a depression, a depressional state where that continuously happen, and the brain natural adaptation to the repeated stimulate decreases as well. So you are now feels like you’re more, I would say, indifference to a lot of things. You feel more indifference in that sense where your brain actually starts to tune out and become numb. There is a psychological, I would say a psychological term in national numbness, or I’m pronouncing it probably wrong, but the idea is that in Hebrew we say ka, but in English it’s a national numbness where even skilled analysts will miss critical alerts, not because they’re not competent, it’s because they’re actually neurologically overloaded. And I would say this is the kind of scenarios that we’re seeing with a lot of people that are facing that alert fatigue. It’s actually their brains shutting down. They become numb to the situation. They’re not evaluating the risk or they’re downsizing a lot of the effects, and they just let it slip over and over because they can’t deal with it. And you hear a lot of people, I can’t deal with it right now. This is one of the scenarios in that sense.

Mandi Walls (20:54): Yeah, it’s not just vibes, right? There’s actually science going on here. It’s one of those things where most of my family works blue collar jobs, so they don’t necessarily relate to me being tired after a day of a brain using job. It’s the same kind of tiredness and fatigue, the mental fatigue that comes out of a very busy day, even if I’m just sitting in my chair. But like you’ve mentioned earlier, the zoom fatigue, all of that stuff contributes to just how your brain is awash in all of these other chemicals and hormones and things that are just kind of dealing with everything that’s going on. It’s kind of amazing that we have all of this science behind it now. It’s amazing.

Boaz Barzel (21:38): Exactly. And I really think that what you said about not being able to understand me because I have a different job where I’m sitting all day or in a meeting all day, and so how come you’re tired? You haven’t carried something, you haven’t walked out outside, you haven’t did. I don’t know what doesn’t matter. But the fact is you are. And sometimes it’s very hard to explain to people, as you mentioned, to explain to people that you’re actually tired. You are depleted, not physically, but you feel it physically. You are mentally depleted, but you feel it in a physical way. And this is something that some people don’t really understand or they’re understanding it too late in the sense that they’re not able to make correction in their current life. So they’re either getting depressed or they just shut down or anything from that perspective. And it’s important because you can see a lot of people quitting their job because they don’t know how to get themselves out of that situation. So they’re forcing themselves out of it, and they’re getting some sort of a neurological reset or psychological reset because they move themselves out of that environment to a new environment. And that’s usually help. And this is what happens, especially in alert fatigue situations.

Mandi Walls (23:07): So what can managers and higher level executives actually do for their teams if they’re seeing folks are burnout, they’ve seen increased turnover, maybe important alerts are getting missed, what kind of steps should they be thinking about taking to help their team deal with this or remedy the situation? What kind of solutions actually exist? Are there any really?

Boaz Barzel (23:32): Yeah, so it’s really, it’s not as easy in that sense. First of all, you want to understand or define that you are in a situation from a person perspective or a manager perspective. You’re in a situation where there is a cause or there is a situation of alert fatigue. And really I would say something like this, how do you know if you are in a situation of alert fatigue?

Boaz Barzel (24:05): You start your day with some sort of a mental plan, okay, you are mentally planning your entire day and in soc, maybe you are going to tune a few of the detections, work on a few of the alerts, do some threat hunting work, maybe with a teammate, mentor them. But then in your day, alert starts a lot of escalations, false positives, different incidents that really changes everything or derails everything. And suddenly at the end of the day, you feel like you haven’t gone to what you’re planning. So all this alerts and unplanned work is actually replaced by chaos. So if you see that happening more and more and more, it really means that you’re under a situation where you are under an alert fatigue. And the same thing also from a business perspective. When we’re hiring people, we’re hiring them because they were sharp professionals and curious, and over time they feel more withdrawn. They feel like they’re not volunteering to test that they volunteer or they’re not collaborating better. Even their posture, the way that they behave or handles their entire body changes. You hear sentences like, it’s not my job, or You know what, just tell me what to do and I’ll do it.

Boaz Barzel (25:23): This is the kind of situations that it’s not exactly laziness. It’s really, I would say cry for help from their side. And managers and businesses have to understand it because they’re going to, if we’re going to use a biological term hemorrhaging talent and these burnout people, analysts really will be more on the defensive, will not act effectively, and eventually they’ll click, they’ll will quit. And we don’t really want that. There’s a nice saying that they say it’s a CFO talking to A CEO and the C ffo of tell CO, you are investing a lot in our people, a lot of money, and they’re quitting after two or three years and the CO goes to that CFO and tell them, and if we’re not going to invest in them and they’ll stay. And that’s kind of the situation where we’re now in a situation where you really need to assess what’s going on now, wellness perks, mindfulness, there are good, there are good stuff, good start. And this is something that you as a manager have to tell your employees. These are the things that you have to do. But really to combat alert fatigue more than just good food and good sleep, they’re always important and they’re extremely valuable to people. You need to re-engineer or re-architect your entire environment. And in soc, for example, how SOC operates,

Boaz Barzel (27:01): First of all, find out from the tools or from the environment, how can you start tuning, even reducing 25, 30% of the noise without really losing any visibility will make a huge change. That’s from a technology perspective. So thinking about how can I tune in the alerts or how can I automatically use AI as an example to enrich. So instead of getting that person to do a lot of items, going through some sort of an AI to enrich, to correlate, to do the initial response, maybe to start asking questions or sending couple of alerts to the relevant people on the other side will really get that habit of, okay, I have a lot of automations in place. I have more people that are handling items before I get to them, but really don’t want to stop there. From a security perspective, I want people to hunt for issues.

Boaz Barzel (27:58): I don’t want people to get issues and go through them actually hunt thinking more of a proactively aspect. When we’re combining between hunting for alerts, actively going out and working around it and combining reactive alerts, then we’re changing the process. This is also something that we talked about in the webinar. Creating a process that I’m moving between different types of tasks and those different types of tasks help me to reset myself cognitively, create ownership, and then I can track that measure. For example, the volume of alerts, the contact switching, the burnout indicators as we call them. Ensure that everybody takes, for example, we have shifts. So instead of everybody’s working from nine to five, I carry shifts around the world. So I hire people somewhere, maybe in the other side of the world, they’re taking the night shift and they’re taking the over hours I can take off.

Boaz Barzel (29:04): I can ensure that if someone worked on a specific project, they get a day off and I’m going to pay for them to watch a movie. I don’t know, go to the movies, eat lunch. It’s not the money, it’s just the ability that the leader or the manager told them, this is something that you have to do and it’s a break. You’re not working anymore. And I think that if you are building that kind of environment and you are constantly monitoring for that kind of alert fatigue and you are conscious about your talent and your people, then the environment will automatically correlate itself. And then we’re always in the process of reducing noise. So think about it where you’re in a party and there’s a lot of music and it’s very, very strong. When you go outside, it suddenly becomes extremely quieter, not just quiet, extremely quieter, and this is how you’ll know that you’re doing something right.

Boaz Barzel (30:09): It suddenly become more quiet than you are imagining, but everything is still handled and you are constantly also giving your team members a place to talk about their job, talk about what they’re doing. It’s a safe location. It can be with the manager if they want, if I know hr, some of their bodies or anything like that to vent out. People just need to vent out. Sometimes reorder their thoughts in some way, and they’re not doing it themselves, but once they’re talking with someone else, they’re actually reordering their thoughts. They’re becoming more aware of what they need, what they want. Sometimes in their head, it seems like a big important thing. And then you’re talking about it, oh, it’s not that important. Okay, it’s manageable. It’s manageable. So it’s really being smart around this and really not just saying that you take care of your people. You’re actually thinking, okay, you work for X amount of time. Now you take a break. It’s mandatory to take that break and it’s not mandatory at one o’clock, but between 12 and two, you have to take a one hour break.

Mandi Walls (31:23): Yeah, no, I think that’s super important. All the things that we’ve been talking about, all the effects on your humans definitely have a cost to the company. You have a financial incentive to protect the, like you mentioned earlier, the folks that you’ve invested in and have trained up and know your processes and understand your applications and your goals and all of those kinds of things. And if they are in a state where they can’t function, then the things that slip through are also financial risk are also a potential cost to your organization. So I think all the things that we’ve talked about, sure there’s the interpersonal and the wellness aspect of it from that perspective, but there’s also real financial complications or indications on a lot of these things as well. Here I live near Newark Airport in the United States, and earlier this year there was runway problems.

Mandi Walls (32:19): They were working on the runway and they were also having trouble with air traffic control. And the air traffic control system in the United States is a mess, but it’s also almost as old as me. So there’s tech debt there. But what we were seeing here in the Newark region was there were so many problems with the air traffic control system that the actual controllers, the humans were under these kinds of alert fatigue kind of situations and the high stress of the job already, and they were needing to take weeks or months off. And that’s part of their contract is how their jobs are structured. But that’s hard to do in a corporate environment as well. We don’t have, especially in the US, employees don’t have those kinds of protections. Some folks can take maybe FMLA, depending on the size of your company. There’s some other constructs there. But being able to step back and say, look, man, this job has burned my brain and I need six weeks off. It’s really, really hard. You don’t want to get to that point, I don’t think with these folks that you’ve hired for their specialization, for the knowledge that they have, especially around security, which is such a big deal now. It just all rolls down from having good practices here.

Boaz Barzel (33:27): Exactly, and it’s a good example because when you are working, for example, in communications or in other areas that are not security related or are not, if I’m not catching this, I’m going to get bridge type of work

Boaz Barzel (33:45): And it’s easier really to take off. But also from a finance, as you said before, from a finance perspective, tasks switching can cost about 40% of productivity. It’s worth billions for company billions, even when there’s the IBM data breach cost, which constantly increasing, we’re in about four or five, 6 billion, I don’t know. I don’t remember how many. The numbers constantly is always expanding. Yeah, it’s always expanding. I don’t remember the numbers from 2024, I think it was 6.9, 4.4, I don’t remember. But from that perspective, if I am ignoring a few alerts, not because I can ignore ’em, but just because I’m alert fatigue and ignoring them, this is the relevant cost that I’ll need to be in mind. So I’m getting a few thousand dollars for recreational activities and ensuring that my people are at least have good food, they sleep well, they have comfortable even comfortable chairs and good screens and something that you’re not necessarily thinking about it, but the environment. By the way, there’s an amazing book, atomic Habits by James.

Mandi Walls (34:58): Oh yeah, that’s really good.

Boaz Barzel (34:59): Amazing book. One of the key aspects there, not about the compound interest, but really about how you are changing your environment. So you’re going to make good habits easier to do.

Boaz Barzel (35:12): It’s the same thing with alert fatigue. How are you going to change the environment so people will not get alert fatigue? And it’s a process. It takes time to get alert fatigue. It’s not like I have two weeks of alerts now I’m fatigued, I’m tired, yes, but I’m not fatigued. If I’m doing that for a few months or a few years, then yes, definitely I’m going to get fatigued. And for businesses, these kind of situation will cost a lot of money, more money to handle than to actually, again, it’s not like managers needs to be nice, it’s good, but it’s what solves them. It’s really to empower the employees to not blame them, but look at the system, understand the system, and then we don’t want, if we’re seeing people are behaving differently, and so it might be some personal stuff that’s affecting them or some work-related stuff, but in a lot of cases it’s actually alert fatigue and this is kind of the signs or the places that we really can be there for our people. And if we are there for our people, this is the best thing. The first thing that I’m always doing with my employees is thinking about how can I contribute to their success, their wellbeing, and how can I promote them in the direction they want to go? This is my job as a manager.

Boaz Barzel (36:36): Eventually it’ll help me of course, but

Mandi Walls (36:40): Amazing. This session has been absolutely fantastic. For folks who want to learn more, we’ll have the stuff that we mentioned in the show notes. I definitely recommend the webinar that you did with Marcy Barr, that was just fascinating and the stuff that he had to contribute, and it was interesting too. He said at the beginning, I don’t know anything about security alerts or anything like this, but here’s what we’re seeing in other places in the world. That’s amazing to apply it to the day-to-day for so many of our technical professionals. So any parting thoughts or advice, advice for folks before we sign off?

Boaz Barzel (37:13): Just first of all, one thing, thank you very much Mandy for hosting me. Absolutely. It was a great discussion. It was really a pleasure to be here and for the people who are listening, first of all, if you’re finding yourself in a situation and you’re saying, okay, this sounds like me. Start thinking about what’s the cause or take a couple of days off, even if you don’t feel like you want to a couple of days off, think about a situation, talk to other people, ask them about it, they’ll give you a better perspective because you’re looking in your life from a manager’s perspective. If you feel that people are underperforming constantly, it’s probably alert fatigue. It’s not the people themselves and you have to think about what they’re going through and how you’re making their environment, not just the tools, their actual environment better. That’s kind my 2 cents in this case.

Mandi Walls (38:06): Yeah, for sure. And so many little changes can be so impactful. Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you so much. This has been great, and like I said further folks, check out the stuff in the show notes. We’ll have plenty of resources there if you’d like to learn more. And we’ll be back with you in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, we’ll wish everybody out there an uneventful day. Thanks for listening. That does it for another installment of Page It to The Limit. We’d like to thank our sponsor, PagerDuty for making this podcast possible. Remember to subscribe to this podcast. If you like what you’ve heard, you can find our show notes at page it to the limit.com, and you can reach us on Twitter at page it to the limit using the number two. Thank you so much for joining us, and remember, uneventful days are beautiful days.